Episode 232
#232 - Interview with author Amani Roberts
In this electric avenue of Lost in the Groove we took it highya. A sit down with DJ, professor, author, and music historian Amani Roberts. For a deep dive into the soul of R&B, its roots, its rise, and its revolution.
Amani breaks down the legacy of R&B groups from the 1950s to the 2000s as explored in his new book The Quiet Storm. From The Temptations and Kool & The Gang to TLC, Destiny’s Child. Even the rise of independent music in the streaming era. We examine the evolution of sound, business, and cultural impact.
We talk about music ownership, sampling ethics, touring realities, and the dark side of the industry. The shady contracts, creative control, and how the digital shift reshaped everything. Amani also explains how legacy artists. Like Prince and modern names like Sia and Billie Eilish rewrote the rules. Seeing why resilience is the ultimate trait for success.
Whether you're a lifelong fan of old-school n' soul or trying to make it as an indie artist today. This episode offers powerful insight into the business, and spirit behind the music.
Where to Find the Guest?
🌐 Website: https://www.amaniexperience.com/
🎧 Work: Grab Amani’s book The Quiet Storm, USA Today best seller.
https://thequietstormbook.com/
📲 Social: Follow Amani @amaniexperience
And of course, you can find all the links for L.I.T.G, and where to listen at:
👉 www.linktr.ee/lostinthegroove
Transcript
Amani Roberts
that every decade to the mid-: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
use if we go back even to the: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's – honestly, it's a lot of history to pack.
::Amani Roberts
It is.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
you know We think like, oh, 50s, 60s, 70s, but like these were decades, even 80s and 90s that really shaped really shaped the generation, even almost like a little bit rebellious if you think about it.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
We need a little rebellion.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, it's it's it's full of history. There's a lot of work to do the research, and um it's packed with some great information and great stories.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Do you, um is there an era, particularly for R&B and soul, that you connect with more than any, for me personally, it's seventy s and 80s and early 90s, like hands down. ah You know, i'm talking hot chocolate.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
first single-debuted album in: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Do you have that? you have like that era that you connect with?
::Amani Roberts
yeah For me, it's like the 80s and 90s and then the 70s. So in that kind of order, 80s, 90s, and 70s is where I kind of connect with the most. Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Why did you find like, do you feel like the 80s was predominantly like the beginning or more of like the set tracker that we kind of like live by?
::Amani Roberts
right for the
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
i think, yeah.
::Amani Roberts
For the 80s, it starts because that's what I remember the best when I first kind of discovered music. Like Kool and the Gang had their biggest hit, I think, in nineteen eighty s Celebration. But then they had some hits that followed afterwards.
::Amani Roberts
Then you have New Edition, which came like the mid-80s, which was a really big group for me, and then had a really big album towards the late eighty s um And so those were like two main groups.
::Amani Roberts
And then, you know, Cameo was big in the 80s. Atlantic Star was big in the 80s. But, you know, ironically, for R&B groups in the 80s, they didn't really track on the charts very, very highly, nor did they get any Grammys, which was interesting. But once you get to the 90s, then that's like the heyday right there. That's like the payday for like really the golden era of R&B and R&B groups specifically because they dominated the Billboard Hot 100
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Well, you're 100% correct. And I think a lot of it has to stem with When you look at R&B, particularly in the 80s, it was continuing on like the soul and funk train of the 70s.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Whereas where you kind of hit like the 90s and you're more in that generation of where it's bringing in rap.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, it's bringing in harder soul. It's bringing in like... You know, we we call it hood style now. It's called like gangster rap. Like back in the day, it was just literally, i used to love, especially like Salt and Pepper, right?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You have these two girls that are like the baddest bitches you've ever met in your life. And they're just singing their hearts contend. You watch these music videos in the 90s and you're like, can I go to their house and smoke some cracking weed?
::Amani Roberts
hu yeah Yeah Salt Pepper, Legends I always gotta shout out there DJ too, DJ Spinderella Because she was the third member um As a DJ I have to give love to the DJs But yeah, I think and think For the seventy s
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know? so legends.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
100%. Yeah. Huge. Huge.
::Amani Roberts
What happened and probably what caused a lull in the 80s is that the disco era was kind of ending in the 70s. And so then after that, you had to have some groups and acts kind of take up the mantle.
::Amani Roberts
And then Michael Jackson got to be really, really big in like the early 80s. First, you know, so you said off the wall, like 79, then Thriller, and I think it was 83. And that was like, that was like momentous.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
yeah you you
::Amani Roberts
And then you kind of keep going from there.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, I mean, people don't understand this. When you had like artists like Michael Jackson, especially when we're talking about, like when these albums were released, like we're talking about Thriller, right?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
After Thriller, the amount of other artists that got inspired and started creating albums that started kind of delving into those but like parallels of like pop and R&B and soul...
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's like literally one one smart guy is like, hey, let me let me try something creative. and then everybody just follows along from it.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You just need that inspiration sometimes. It's crazy.
::Amani Roberts
This is true, this is true. i agree, for sure. So the 80s were because then that's when the Madonna broke out also, talking about music in general. um And then, you know, it kind of, then you started to get like hip hop, Run DMC,
::Amani Roberts
really kind of got to be big in the mid 80s and they did the collaboration with Aerosmith walked that Walk This Way which was very very important very important because then that opened hip hop up to an entirely new audience that was really like rock and pop and that really kind of expanded hip hop and accelerated its growth um and then from there you know you go to like the late 80s of course I mentioned like New Edition and then you get into the and
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
yeah Which was amazing.
::Amani Roberts
and It was just like no holds barred. Well, for hip hop, the 90s was like the perfect storm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Mm-hmm.
::Amani Roberts
s, into the: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
th ourselves. When we hit the: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, there was... in it People don't talk about this. This is a thing that's really interesting, right? you know Everybody talks about the crime that was going on in the 80s and the 70s, and then everything starts to get cleaned up, like particularly on the East Coast of New York in the 90s.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
No one talks about the crime that went on in the okay? okay There was a lot of like craziness that was not only going on between artists, but there was wars that were going on between record producers.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There was wars going out between managers. There was this push of literally forcing artists to do things that they don't wanna do just so that they can get music out. like There was just so much abuse and crap.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So what happens is is then you get people that are like freaked out and damaged, then you get the old generation complaining how they got screwed over too. And then it's just a giant fucking shit storm.
::Amani Roberts
yeah it it Yeah, that's very interesting ah observation.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Right?
::Amani Roberts
There was a lot going on, a lot going on then and now for sure. Yes, yes.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
But ah you do see now, honestly, the biggest shift that we've ever seen before, which is where the underground scene is dominating like nobody's business.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I had the opportunity to speak to some record producers and managers that are out in Atlanta right now. They're dominating. The underground is outproducing the mainstream in Atlanta right now. And it's predominantly because people like what they're making.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They get really creative.
::Amani Roberts
Right.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They get really intense. And sometimes like homage to the old roots sometimes. Like, it's not necessarily just about making music and about like shaping a generation. It's like giving the people what they want, man.
::Amani Roberts
i think I think nowadays it's very it's much easier to get your music out there than it used to be.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Much easier.
::Amani Roberts
It used to be very, very, ah I don't know the proper English, but like it was highly gate-kept, which means that you know you really had to work with a label to get your music out there. The label would decide, are we going to release this or are we going to shelf it?
::Amani Roberts
And now it's very different where you can put your song out on Spotify, all the platforms via CD Baby or whatever kind of intermediary you use, and you can get it out there. Then you can get in the hands of DJs and everyone else. It can be streaming.
::Amani Roberts
You can get it onto playlists and then you're off running. And so I think that the barrier to entry is much, much lower now, which helps the independent artists and helps the underground artists. The challenge, though,
::Amani Roberts
is that if they want to get their song on radio or get it played a lot, they still kind of have to work through the record labels for that portion specifically. So it's kind of like the the record label model is changing before our very eyes.
::Amani Roberts
It's very different. It's kind of taking away the power from the labels, but they still have a good use and they can still help a song go go viral or get big.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They do.
::Amani Roberts
It's just things are shifting. And... I think that the better we can educate all artists and all musicians so they can make better business decisions, then the more good music we'll be able to hear because we don't want to have these great artists where their albums are shelved because they're stuck on a label.
::Amani Roberts
They can't get out of the contract. they have to wait four or five, six years to release their music. Then at the time has passed. And so, yeah, yeah, that's kind of my initial thoughts on kind of what you shared there.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about, I mean, Ice Cube even spoke about this many years ago. I mean, he's even said how he has seen as an artist. And I mean, he's been in films and he's an incredibly talented rapper.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
But he has seen other artists suffer right in front of him, you know and not many people are strong enough to be able to say something like that. He's not saying that like you know there's no opportunity, there's no chance, but like what you're saying is that there are those limitations. It's where if you wanna be able to have as much control as you want, you kinda have to go that independent route.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Because if you go the route of the mainstream, it's where you have to follow their numbers. You have to follow what they're looking for. If they tell you that you need to cut something, you need to cut it. If they tell you need to change, because it's their business.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And then, you know, whether we like it or not, like they have a right to do so.
::Amani Roberts
Right.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They're like, hey, listen, we've had artists going back 60 years ago. Like, don't come in here and tell us how to run our business. You can see the two sides of it. But your point again is, is where if you have that ease of technology,
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Where people are able now where you could just go on GarageBand. You can get Logic logic Pro. like You can download software that integrates with AI to be able to crank beats. ah it The possibilities are endless, but the idea is how can we blend those to benefit both in mainstream and in the underground scene?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
t. Like we've said, since the: ::Amani Roberts
Yeah. I think along with Ice Cube, Prince was probably of the first artists that really kind of um talked about it.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
God bless them.
::Amani Roberts
And you could see through the example he set where he kind of changed his name and really fought in public about his relationship with his label. Like he kind of set the blueprint.
::Amani Roberts
And then, you know, a lot of artists kind of paid attention, but it's still, it still wasn't mainstream. Then even i think right after Prince and, you know, I kind of talk about Taylor Swift here, but after Prince,
::Amani Roberts
Then DMX, he was one of the ones who re-recorded his music, first ones, before Taylor Swift, so that he would own he would have the rights to the music. And so that's why you'll see DMX, it it says his version or whatever.
::Amani Roberts
And then Taylor Swift made this ah strategy very common when she re-recorded her music because she couldn't buy back the rights to it. And now she has Taylor's version. So... Prince was one of the first ones to really ah illuminate the issues were that that were with when with it comes to working with labels.
::Amani Roberts
They have other artists that actually followed it, and now... I mean, you'll see, you mentioned like production and that barrier being low. I mean, one of the big, best examples is Billie Eilish and her brother Phineas.
::Amani Roberts
They released a Grammy award-winning album produced from their house. and And that that's unprecedented. That really scares people because now you don't really need to go into a studio.
::Amani Roberts
You could do it from your bedroom, as you say, and you can... you can have like platinum selling albums. So we're in the middle of a very, very dramatic shift in how music is consumed, on how music is produced.
::Amani Roberts
ack to when you mentioned the: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Mm-hmm.
::Amani Roberts
That really took away the power of the album. No longer did people were people forced to buy a whole album to get the one or two or three songs that they wanted.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They could only once, just one song.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, they could buy one song and it also devalued the value of music to 99 cents per track. Then if you continue on, then you get to streaming and streaming gives you all the music for free.
::Amani Roberts
And so in addition to being able to pick whatever song you want to listen to, if you don't mind some ads, you can listen to whatever song you want to listen to for free. And that really took away, specifically for those three genres, R&B, country, and rock, because those albums tell a story.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
You have the prelude, the interlude, the albums might follow a certain format telling a story so that when you get to the last song, the story is over. but that's gone away now and everything people can just pick and choose.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, I know. And the crazy part is, you know, we're talking about modern time. Like you take an artist like I was thinking about this recently, like Erykah Badu. OK, when she makes an album, it for me personally, like I it's like almost like a form of meditation.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I have to listen from the album from start to finish because the way that she tells the story, it kind of like each song kind of. coexist with one another. And you're right.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
When we entered the generation of where you had iTunes, you had iPods, you can get, you know, ah download a thousand songs and it's 99 cents.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Singles became the new norm and almost like the the nickel, you know, the nickel um film, you know, to be able just pay for a nickel and be able to watch a film.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
That's kind of what has happened. But I think also what a lot of artists have tried to be able to do is
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
to either try to be able to create really amazing music videos on their own budget. Okay, so I found this out recently. There are a lot of artists, even mainstream artists, that will hire independent filmmakers, indie film houses to make these music videos.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Reason being is A, sometimes they want to go for more a low budget. Two, they want to own their rights. So if they do put it on YouTube and they put on there, they can make money in revenue, even though they're not making that much money from streaming.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So it's like almost we got to be chameleons.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
that's That's the reality.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
se look, man, think about it.: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
it's like It's like as if: ::Amani Roberts
oh
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
st,: ::Amani Roberts
Interesting.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
That's what happened.
::Amani Roberts
Oh, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
That's what happened in: ::Amani Roberts
You can afford it.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You can buy one.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. you all need
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Buy laptop. You can buy one.
::Amani Roberts
yeah You only need YouTube to watch. You said something else that I wanted to to add to because you made a great point. um to Okay. So artists, like nowadays, because you spoke about how streaming and how that's different.
::Amani Roberts
Nowadays, really, if we're really getting to the core of it, streaming It's like marketing. You're really just marketing your music.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is.
::Amani Roberts
you know You're just marketing us to get out there. Where artists now get the money from is touring. That's why they're always on tour. And that's it. And then you know if you work with a label and you get tour support, you got to pay that back. So it's a little challenging there.
::Amani Roberts
But they make the money through touring. And now what you're seeing is the emergence of more... fan-to-artist direct platforms where fans can connect pretty much directly with artists through a platform, but they are paying, of course, a subscription fee or certain levels.
::Amani Roberts
I'm thinking like a Patreon, but there are others there there other platforms out there that do it even better.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Right.
::Amani Roberts
And then artists can get that revenue without having to share 50, 60, 70, 80, 85, 90% with the label. It's just direct. So they get more the money.
::Amani Roberts
Money, which means that they need to have fewer people sign up, but they can keep more of the money. Then you added merch, which has taken on a whole new world, which has shown to be a nice foundation for revenue for artists.
::Amani Roberts
And it's different. So now you have artists that are really depending on touring, whether it's a major tour, minor tour, you know, doing a... like home tours, home concerts. They have the fan-to-direct platforms, and then you know they don't get too much money from streaming.
::Amani Roberts
Maybe if you do some physical sales, like you create a limited edition vinyl and sell that at a premium, you can get money. But artists have to be much more savvy now about making revenue, and they also have to be really, really savvy about their touring so that they're not really killing themselves, but they're still making some consistent income.
::Amani Roberts
It's... it's it's um it was different It was different back in the 60s, and it's different now in different ways, but it's just as difficult is what I'm trying to say.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's a dub. Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is. And I mean, you know, people, i love this. OK, people like to play those clips on Instagram and Facebook. Right. I think we've all seen this of Kurt Cobain when they're discussing that how much they're charging for a seat, like $50. And he was going like nuts, like how crazy expensive.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I I kind of understand that because a lot of the ah give you a great example, man. They had an Aerosmith concert here two years ago here in Florida. OK, in Fort Lauderdale. I think Fort Lauderdale was in Miami.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They charged $998 for all the way in the back behind a giant TV screen for a seat.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And what like i get it. A lot of people are pissed off. They're like, I want to support the artist. I'm not paying $500 to sit 500 feet above in the air to look at a freaking television. I can do that at home.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, and one thing that, sadly, Florida has kind of been killing this a lot, but something that was a lot more common here back in the day was there were a lot of breweries and venues here, which you still can go here. Like there's Revolution Live and Fort Lauderdale.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They bring in tons of different artists from all different places. You pay 15 bucks. Drinks are kind of, you know, like always, drinks are always a little expensive, but there's just an entry fee.
::Amani Roberts
Hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There's no seating, none of that. You know, there's some places here that they'll charge like 30 bucks. I get it, like this stuff is expensive and artists need to be making money, but at the same time, like what we're saying at this end, it's weird.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There's the double-edged sword here. It's like, we are okay, now we gotta make profit off of touring. Okay, we gotta use online companies like Ticketmaster, you know, StubHub. But they have people that buy out all the tickets and then resell them for insane amount of prices.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So then you as an artist now get screwed over again, because nobody could afford to buy these tickets.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's just, ugh, everywhere you go, man, like we were saying, like even in the 60s, even now, it's just, there's always, always someone who's gonna bite you in the ass.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Always.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, you have to be savvy. um A lot of times, if you're if you're not a megastar, you can work directly with the venue so you can work out a different hard ticket or a soft ticket arrangement.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
So that there's really, you just give the venue a cut, 15 or 20%, and you keep 80. It's hard though, and there smaller venues. so And those are like kind of the club venues, maybe some of the, just the small.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
Once you get to like the theaters, the amphitheaters, the arenas, that's out the door because that's what the Ticketmasters, they all control. So you have, it's really challenging. And artists have to know
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is
::Amani Roberts
They have to know. That's why I'm – because I'm a music music business professor and I also coach musicians on just making better business decisions. So you really have to stay up to date with what's going on in the industry so you can make better decisions.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
hat you might have decided in: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
100%. Yeah. yeah
::Amani Roberts
And you have to just – you have to either keep up to date or have someone on your team that can give you advice. Say, okay, now – Things have shifted. You might want to go to this person or this group of people that can help you get a better cut for this city.
::Amani Roberts
It's so complex and things are changing so fast that it's really hard for artists to remain creative, keep putting out good music and good product, whereas they also need to manage their business side.
::Amani Roberts
It's just very hard for them to juggle both and still be at their peak in terms of creativity.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, because you have to juggle so much. you know The thing that I try emphasizing so much on this podcast, and I'm not trying to be a pessimist at all, Being artist and being a successful artist is very difficult.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
OK, there are artists where, in my case, where I cannot make this professionally my main income. I don't have the mental capacity to do so.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I like being able to have these conversations and just seeing where this goes. But it. But at the same time, allowing myself to give myself an education to do something else in order to be able to support myself. What I'm trying to get at is is that like there's different ways of being a successful artist. Like you say, being able to make smart business choices when you're in the profession, knowing things to keep up to date because there's new technologies that are coming out every single day.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There's new ways of integrating with them. But... If you're looking for an industry that's easy, this is not the one to be in.
::Amani Roberts
No.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's just not.
::Amani Roberts
No. It's not easy. It's very difficult. to Just to add on, because you set it up really nicely, like for an artist nowadays, you have to kind of, let's take you have a pie, and there are five pieces of the pie.
::Amani Roberts
And the piece number one, which is the most important, is you have to be at your peak ah level of creativity, producing music, getting music out there. That's number one.
::Amani Roberts
Number two is that you need to also have
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
have proper
::Amani Roberts
proper make proper business decisions because you want to know, when do I release this? What do I put this on? Do that. Number three is that you have to then...
::Amani Roberts
Marketing. You have to be able to market your music and yourself appropriately. that's And I'm going to kind of combine number four with like, which is newer from like the 80s, to now is like, you also have to like, you're a brand.
::Amani Roberts
You're a brand. And so how does that translate over to like sponsorships, um your image, your your portrayal online? That's four. And then fifth, is which is not talked about a lot, although I do credit Chaperone for speaking about this, is just your mindset, your mental health. like How are you able to manage all this, stay in the abundance mindset, and also make sure that you are as positive and thinking positive and just as in ah in a better mental state that you can be so that you can continue to repeat the process.
::Amani Roberts
So that's kind of like the pieces of the pie. Also, another revenue source that I failed to mention, but I think it's kind of like a sleeping giant. Well, there's three sleeping giants.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Mm-hmm.
::Amani Roberts
But the one that I want to mention is ah sync revenue, synchronization revenue. So, for example, when when artists are able to put their music on TV shows, video games, commercials, movies, etc., that is a...
::Amani Roberts
kind of hidden source of revenue that can really help to allow an artist to have a sustainable income while they're still releasing music, while they're still touring. If you're able to get with the proper music supervisor and build a great relationship and then they start to sync and place their music, place your music into their films and their commercials, that can add up very quickly.
::Amani Roberts
and A lot of artists have broken out via sync music. ah Lord Huron had a really, really big placement on 13 Reasons Why. They did well. Lizzo had a really good placement.
::Amani Roberts
I forget the show, but there's artists out there that have had extremely big placements on these shows that have allowed them to just have a more sustainable income.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
yeah
::Amani Roberts
So i want to make sure I mention that also.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, 100% agree with you. And I think another element to that is very much comes to collaboration. We're. One of the ways I feel that artists have been able to thrive and blossom is that collaboration process.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, to your point, by the way, there are artists that have been able to come out of the underground because larger artists or more famous artists found them and then ex exposed them to their audience, which then fell in love with them. And then they were able to flourish and grow from there.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Being solo is great and being independent is awesome. But I think the really cool part of also being an artist is the idea of being able to put yourself out there to be able to collaborate because you don't know what those opportunities will give you along the way.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
you know We were talking about this earlier.
::Amani Roberts
yeah
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
i think this was a great example. Aerosmith and DMC. yeah aerosmith and run dmc
::Amani Roberts
and Absolutely
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
At that time, Aerosmith was already dead, okay? They were they weren't barely making any money. They were barely selling anything. Like, they were a dying band.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And then Run-DMC comes along and they come out with this song and they blow up because of a collaboration with a different artist.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Collaborations are the key. So I'm glad you mentioned that because I have three of my favorite examples of collaboration I'll share really quickly.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Oh, please.
::Amani Roberts
First of all, I spoke about Kool and the Gang. So Kool and the Gang, they kind of hit a plateau.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
Disco music was kind of dying. They were kind of stuck in between disco, R&B. They had to do something to change to remain relevant. They collaborated with two people. first The first one was a producer out of Brazil, Ymir Diodata. I got to make sure I'm pronouncing that right.
::Amani Roberts
They collaborated with him. Then they also got a lead singer by the name of JT Taylor. They work and got JT Taylor to be their lead singer. They then released Celebration. That is their only Billboard Hot 100 number one song, but only because that collaboration did that happen.
::Amani Roberts
Then they released other songs like Cherish, Fresh. All those songs went to top two or top three. That's one example. Then You have an artist. This one is top of mind because I saw it recently. I'm sure you remember Maggie Rogers and the clip she had when Pharrell first heard her music for the first time and just his reaction was crazy.
::Amani Roberts
She collaborated and she opened up for Coldplay. So when you have an artist like Maggie Rogers open up for Coldplay, just imagine the collaboration. Her audience gets to experience Coldplay. Coldplay's audience gets to experience her.
::Amani Roberts
That's a great collaboration. And you do that. Then on the R&B side, I'm a huge fan of Money Long. And what people don't realize is that she has been writing hits for decades for different artists.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
what don't realize is that she's been writing hits decades different artists. then just recently, she collaborates with other her her is So that's
::Amani Roberts
And then she just recently, she collaborates with many, many other people on her own album. and her own album is doing well. So that's an example of collaborating via songwriting.
::Amani Roberts
So you're writing songs songs for these big artists and they're getting hits. Then they're going to come back and have you guest guest on their tour also. don't have a specific artist, but I just know she has written for numerous people and that's another part of collaboration is songwriting.
::Amani Roberts
When you talk about songwriting though, It's very important for all these artists nowadays to make sure that they keep as much of their songwriting percentages and publishing percentages as possible so that they can get the long money, which is the money you get years down the line as your song's being played in public.
::Amani Roberts
And then you are signed up with your ASCAP or BMI, so you get your public performance royalties.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
What's what's it called again? It's called it's not called. Oh, there's a word for it. ah Like it's like residual and income like you get but is that.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, it's residual.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, your residuals.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, residuals.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
ah
::Amani Roberts
Your mechanical royalty residuals, your public performance residuals, like that's money that comes to you every six to 12 months. But it's not that common knowledge. You'd think it'd be common knowledge, but many artists, particularly the new ones,
::Amani Roberts
You need to sign up with ah either BMI or ASCAP. I'm a member of ASCAP. You need to sign up with the MLC, the Mechanical Licensing Collective, so you can get all these different royalties that are out there from SiriusXM Radio and other online platforms.
::Amani Roberts
They're just sitting there, but you have to know enough to sign up for the proper organizations, claim them, and get your money.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
That's why I always come back to For artists, it's about education because many artists are leaving money on the table. If they don't claim it in three or four years, it goes into the black box. Then if it's not claimed there, they just divide it up amongst the labels and the big labels use that as a revenue source.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
did you Do you remember, um this was years ago, i think it was Prince.
::Amani Roberts
and
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
He he went on um Saturday, i like ah one of those ah late late night host TV shows.
::Amani Roberts
Larry King. He was on Larry King.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And he spoke about how Mariah Carey got screwed over with her contract. And you know he's sitting there like this host and he's like being all cool. He's like, oh, what big deal, $20 million. she 130 million copies.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
she sold a hundred and thirty million copies And like, she got screwed. And then like, Larry King kind of put the pieces together and he had that stumped look on his face. He was like, oh
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, yeah. Because you see these artists, um and I love Mariah Carey, by the way.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
She didn't know she didn't know.
::Amani Roberts
I'm a huge, I'm a stan.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
ah
::Amani Roberts
I'm um' umm a yeah um'm a lamb, as they say.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
is the only person since the: ::Amani Roberts
Great one. But but ah one thing, I think in the first day of my class, I teach art i teach all these music business young professionals that an advance is a loan.
::Amani Roberts
That's simple as that. It's like a loan. It's kind of i'm no interest loan, but there's actually interest on the back end, but it's not what you would think. And so like you have to recoup that. If you get a million dollar advance, don't go buying a house.
::Amani Roberts
Don't buy any cars. like You have to recoup that immediately, which means you have to sell enough ah music stream enough music so that the label can make back that million dollars and then you can start to earn money.
::Amani Roberts
But so many artists get stuck in the cycle of they get an advance, they might not recoup it, they get another advance. And it's just like, and therefore they cannot own their their property, they can't own their IP, and they're just stuck in a loop.
::Amani Roberts
I think um Sir Mix-a-Lot. If there's some videos out there where he breaks it down and talks about how he recouped as quickly as possible so he could make his money, he's a brilliant businessman.
::Amani Roberts
And he just, you know, some people just look at him, oh, that's just the baby got back guy. No, no, no, no. He is a brilliant businessman and he knows his stuff there. And so just with like, that's what i I remember.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
I have to rewatch the clip, but that's what Prince was talking about. Like, like Mariah Carey signed a really, really big deal, but that she has to recoup all that money and everything. I'm sure eventually she did, but it took her a while.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, i you run into run into this a lot. like ah shady The oldest thing in the music industry is the shady business deal. you know That deal that locks you in for 50 years and you're owned by Sony.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I mean, think about, okay, this is the most wildest. We're just talking about famous people, okay? The Paul McCartney has his catalog bought out by Michael Jackson.
::Amani Roberts
Hmm. Hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
ay, this man started music in: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
He has to buy back his music in his eighty s
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. yeah that's that's Nowadays, some artists actually, and I hope I get the proper term right, but I think it's called like a reversion clause, where after 20, 25, 30 years, the rights that music will revert back to the original artist.
::Amani Roberts
The best example of that is i'm just of Running Up That Hill, which got to be a really big song two or three years ago. on ah
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Katie Bush.
::Amani Roberts
Kate Bush off of um so off of Stranger Things.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Kate Bush. Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
she her That song came out, I want to say, in like 85 and 30 years after 85 or 83. Let me think here. ah Her reversion clause, like the music came back to her like one or two years before the song was placed on Stranger Things.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
and
::Amani Roberts
So she was able to get all that money. And so she's a good example of how, I mean, good example, but after 30 years, it reverted back to her. you Nowadays, you want to revert back after maybe seven or something.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
um um
::Amani Roberts
Because the label labels are taking a risk on you, and they are funding your project, so they need to have some sort of insurance.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I know.
::Amani Roberts
But 30 years is a long time. And so what you're seeing now is some artists are, because they have the knowledge, they're being more savvy with their negotiations.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is.
::Amani Roberts
Like, okay, I would like for my music to revert back to me in five years, 10 years, 15, but not 30. thirty That's a long time. so that's That's an example. When you talk about Paul McCartney, I think of Kate Bush and running up that hill because that's a good example of how it reverted back to her and she was able to benefit by a placement, a sink, which we talked about earlier, and then she owns all the IP.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
eople that are still from the: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
and They're old, but Mick Jagger's still performing, man. like You can go online right now and book tickets to the Rolling Stones.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You'll see him on stage. So that is kind of a weird, almost parallel, because like I can see for you as almost like a business perspective where you have all of these years of restructuring and rules and regulations and how to be better being able to adhere as an artist to be successful, be able to make that proper revenue.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
but you still have all of those people that got screwed over and fucked with still alive. You know, it's it's bizarre.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's like, oh, it's 60 years ago, but yet they're still performing and you can buy tickets right now.
::Amani Roberts
yeah because Yeah. You'll see a lot of legacy artists. We love to call them the legacy artists.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes, legacy artists.
::Amani Roberts
ah Because you'll see a lot of them perform because they still um they don't own the publishing to their music. They don't have the rights.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
no
::Amani Roberts
they have If they want to survive, they have to perform. And you'll have legends. I want to say Anita Baker, legendary R&B singer. Recently, within the last three to four years, thanks to, umm go I got to look it up real quick to see which hip hop artist helped her.
::Amani Roberts
She just recently got back the rights to her music. you know And she's a legend from the 80s. I mean, she won Grammys and Grammys and platinum albums. So that's an example of an artist who is still out there performing. She just had a show.
::Amani Roberts
I think it was December. She's still out here performing, but still trying to get their music rights back. And there's stories like that all the time. And... um You'll even see some of the current artists, newer artists.
::Amani Roberts
I think it was Megan Thee Stallion signed a 360 deal and pretty quickly soon after she said, oh, this is not good for me. So she had to try to get out of it. You'll have artists go to the extreme like Kanye West has his, ah I think his was a publishing deal that wasn't in his favor.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
So he probably went a little bit too drag to then videotaped himself yearning on the publishing deal. But his... His messaging and his his gripe was legit, though, because he signed deal that wasn't good for him.
::Amani Roberts
He just went about the wrong way of trying to resolve it. But it's still happening. It's still happening. And so, you know, we go back to the education. The more artists know, the better business decisions they can make.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
i i you're You're so right. And i i I hate to say this, but it's kind of true. There's almost like a level of craziness that exists with artists, okay?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Where you're dealing with people that not always, like, I'm not saying all artists are like this, but I feel like a lot of artists are like sometimes like mentally traumatized or they just handle the world a little differently than most people do.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, and there's almost this level of, disingenuous behavior where you're almost taking advantage of somebody that, okay, I'm going to throw this out there because I'm fucking cocky and I don't care.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Take R. Kelly, for example. All right. The man is a sicko. Agreed 100%. He got screwed. Bad. All right. Couldn't read. Man couldn't read.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
so Signed his name on some bloody paper. He didn't even know it was on there. Like, that is clearly, obviously, like, the man is a sicko, but, like, that's still taking advantage of an artist.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, because, come on.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
yeah i think the record producers would know he can't read.
::Amani Roberts
Well, yeah, that's... I don't know if I knew that, but I will say that If you separate his music from his personal activities, musically, he's bordering on he's he's bordering on he's boarding on being a musical genius, musically.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes. Very much separate. Very much separate.
::Amani Roberts
eriod, let's say the late mid-: ::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
He was... He was up there at the top. um but
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
He was jamming.
::Amani Roberts
But you know he just produced hits after hits, crossed over. He did everything. you know I Believe I Can Fly. He had the duet with Celine Dion. like He was doing everything musically. Just boarding on a genius.
::Amani Roberts
Going back to Anita Baker, it was Chance the Rapper who really helped her get her um music rights. She's just controlling her music. So i wanted to circle back on that loop. But yeah, it's just, I have a soft spot in my heart for artists.
::Amani Roberts
My passion is to close the knowledge gap between the industry and all musicians so they just know. And that's one of my passions.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is, and and i it honestly shines through, and it's something really rare sometimes, because there is, there's a lot of history. There's a lot of elements and pieces that make up what we call You know, the film industry, the music industry, the entertainment industry, there's just a lot of pieces that come into play, especially with the history, rules, regulation, government.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
A lot of things have to come in. But, you know, you you take people that i this is the thing that I hate sometimes when people are like, well, they were kind of disgusting in real life.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I get that. But here's the thing, man. We're here to see what they created and what they made. You know, if you constantly like mix people like creatives, mix their personal lives into what they've created, you're going to find flaws across the charts. You want to do that right now? We can do that with LL Cool J. OK, we can read his lyrics straight through from song to song. Do that right now.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's his music. It's his performance. Like when you hear LL Cool J, like I'm just like in my zone.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, that's what I like i as an artist. That's what I look forward to when I hear music. but We're talking about R&B. We're talking about soul. We're talking about rock. I don't give a rat's ass about their personal life.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I don't. Doesn't have anything to do with what I'm listening to right now.
::Amani Roberts
yeah that's a two That's a sticky subject because it's ah it's a sticky subject because there are probably other artists from other genres who are you know victims of, or not victims, who have victimized people in their personal life.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
it is
::Amani Roberts
It's just not publicized as much as it is for other genres, R&B and hip hop. So, you know, that's ah that's a sticky subject.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
mean, you mean like it is.
::Amani Roberts
but What were say? Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
no i was going to say diddy, but, you know, that that is a very, very sticky subject.
::Amani Roberts
ah
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, they yeahs that's just gotta stay away from those subjects and stick to the music.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is.
::Amani Roberts
That's a bad one there.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
it is
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, that's that's a horrible one. But...
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
but that But again, that's what I'm trying to get at is in the end of the day, we are dealing with human beings across the chart.
::Amani Roberts
um
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
We're talking record producers to managers to um you know marketers, artists, band members. These are all people. You know, like, especially for yourself as a coach, you're dealing with people that need to be able to get that education, be able to know the history, be able to have, be able to work through things. Like, you're not going to change the world, man.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
People are people, you know?
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
could be the most, you could be freaking glizzo, but guess what? You got flaws. Everybody's got flaws.
::Amani Roberts
Well, yeah, her flaws were exposed. Did he just... That's just a bad one there. um Because in addition to the horrible acts he did, and it's rumored to have done, because nothing has been proven yet, like he also kept the publishing and a lot of the rights to some of his artist's musics, and only recently, in the last year, before this all kind of thought up, did he give them back. So...
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
which is not cool.
::Amani Roberts
That's kind of a double that's kind of the double whammy there. And so we'll see what happens when the truth comes out. But that's not a good one right there. So, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
No, and you know, people like to say, well, you know, group culture gets complicated. I love this shit. Group culture gets complicated. Okay, explain to me then how you have a band like Wu-Tang Clan that came out in the It was a group of like nine or ten people, and they figured out on how to be supportive as artists.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So like that's not an excuse.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And it's not.
::Amani Roberts
well Wu-Tang is a unicorn. Because out of all the groups that I studied for that the book I released, the most common reason for groups to break up were money and drug usage.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is.
::Amani Roberts
However, with Wu-Tang, they have to be clear of this. They have met they have shown a masterclass in branding and being part of a group, then also going solo and then coming back to your part of the group.
::Amani Roberts
I think they're a unicorn. not many Not many groups, particularly in the last two decades, have... been as successful as Woot Egg in terms of music, branding, marketing. They are unicorn in my opinion.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
They are very much a unicorn, but they are a very good example of don't steal from other artists. but That's the example of Wu-Tang. you know and I i ah heard him on the Joe Rogan podcast the other day, too. and like The second you know you get into Muddy Waters, okay, your music is great. But the second you get into you're stealing from other artists, you're not allowing other artists to be creative.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You're traumatizing other artists. That to me is like the ultimate insanity. Like, what the hell are you doing? It's like, you all come from the same place. You're all trying to go to the the same direction. Like I can imagine even for yourself, like you're dealing with students or people you're talking with.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Like, you're not gonna tell them, hey, well, guess what? This person's gonna screw you over. Definitely you should screw that person over. Hey, you should take that person. Like, what kind of attitude is that, man? We all have to be able to figure out our stride and be successful in the industry.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, put your pride, put your greed, put all that shit aside. Because guess what? The second you're in that rink, you got that bare knuckles. Go for it. You can see if it's going to land.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, I think Wu-Tang, they do a good job because they sample a good amount of music, so they always get their samples cleared.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Mm-hmm.
::Amani Roberts
If they need to, they also add whomever they need to in terms of to the publishing, give them a couple of publishing points or songwriting points. So other artists should do the same thing.
::Amani Roberts
If you want to sample another artist, get the sample cleared. If you want to, you maybe you're going to remake a song that another artist has remade. Like, ah give you know pursue the proper channels to get this artist proper credit.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
and keep it moving. But a lot of artists try skirt around that and don't do that. Eventually they get discovered or they get called out and have to re-release things or or add someone on the publishing of the songwriting towards the end or or they have to take out the samples.
::Amani Roberts
um But the system is set up pretty well for clearing samples and adding people, publishing, getting permission. So there's really no excuse for artists to steal music.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So, I put in the excuse to artists.
::Amani Roberts
Now, if they're stealing it intentionally, they're going to get in trouble. But if it's unintentional, there's a system set up where you can kind of correct that, correct those mistakes very quickly.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There is, and I want to tell you, like especially when it comes to sampling, which, again, when we're talking about history, and correct me if I'm wrong, um when we kind of came around the 80s, sampling became very popular in how music was being made.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I mean, a lot of songs were sampling from other songs. And i think also, like, today, it's kind of where you you have those DJ mixers that break down the sampling for you.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And it's kind of interesting because not only like it's just sampling, you kind of understand why the artist took that sample. You know, I can understand this because like you have that inspiration moment, right?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Where you're like, start watching something, you hear something, hey, that's kind of cool. I want to try something like that. that opens a door to something right there, you know?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And we were saying earlier, like collaboration with other artists, that is a form of collaboration with other artists.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm. 100%. Yes. 100%. There's an ah interview i use in my class. It's with Bob James. He's on Questlo's podcast, and he talks about sampling and how I think it was Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Bits were one of the first artists to sample him, and he didn't like it at first.
::Amani Roberts
But then, you know... I think he actually talked to Jazzy Jeff where they had conversations. He was able to understand more. Then they actually collaborated on an album and a project.
::Amani Roberts
And so he didn't like it at first.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
so he didn't like it at first.
::Amani Roberts
And Bob James is a legend in the jazz, fusion jazz, really a legend in music. Let's just say legend in music. And he's one of the most sampled ah hip hop He's one of the most sampled jazz musicians in hip-hop's history.
::Amani Roberts
And he didn't like it at first, but because he was open to it, he um yeah learned to like it, understood that they were actually giving tribute to him. i think Nautilus, which was like one of the last tracks he included on one of his albums, is one of the most sampled songs in hip-hop.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
And that's just sampling. Then one of my favorite groups, the Isley Brothers, they're probably one of the most sampled groups in hip-hop's history. And you know, you hear...
::Amani Roberts
ah Let me see here. You hear Ice Cube. You hear it It Was a Good Day. That's Footsteps in the Dark. You hear Between the Sheets with a Notorious B.I.G.
::Amani Roberts
like It this goes on and on and on. You hear Lady when it's Kendrick Lamar's eye. I hope I got that one right. I always have to remember my samples. And then...
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
there's a There's Ice Vanilla with um Ice Ice Baby.
::Amani Roberts
Well, Queen. Queen. With Queen, yes.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
But I don't know. I think he might have got in trouble for that at first.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Oh, he did.
::Amani Roberts
I'm not sure he properly... properly key See, he he's an example how didn't clear that at first.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
oh he didn't. No, no, he didn't.
::Amani Roberts
I think he had to go back and clear it, and then, you know, that's his only hit. But yes, I mean, even...
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah, literally. One hit wonder.
::Amani Roberts
one of my One of my favorite examples, I'll go back to Sir Mix-a-Lot, is how he was so smart.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
is that if you remember I'm just going to quiz you. If you think about the Pussycat Dolls, what's their biggest song ever?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I gotta... Let me see. I gotta to see what they look like. i'm um I'm dyslexic. I have to sometimes see what they look like. Um...
::Amani Roberts
So Pussycat Dolls, their biggest song was Don'tcha. Don't you wish you had a like they like me.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
that like me?
::Amani Roberts
Okay.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
Yes.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
Okay. That song is really Sir Mix-a-Lot's song, Swass. If you turn on Sir Mix-a-Lot and Swass, that is Don'tcha. Now, of course, they're singing on top of it, but they worked with Sir Mix-a-Lot, gave him songwriting, publishing, and he makes almost as much from that sample and that song from Pussycat Dolls as he does from Baby Got Back.
::Amani Roberts
Because he was smart, they collaborated, they got permission, they gave him his points off and running. And so that's just a couple examples throughout like pop and hip-hop of just how sampling works.
::Amani Roberts
Because we went from the Bob James example to Isley Brothers.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Which is a mate, which is a mate. By the way, Nautilus is amazing for anybody that like love sampling.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Oh, that's a trip.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. Because when you hear... When you hear Nautilus, you're going to be reminded of tons of famous hip-hop songs. I think it's a Nas song there, Jazzy Jeff song there. There's a lot of songs that are sampling Nautilus that you wouldn't even know.
::Amani Roberts
Some people don't even know it's sample. A lot of my students have never even heard of Bob James, but they've heard of those hip-hop songs.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I feel like you got to go back. Like, this is just me. You got to go to the roots. The thing that I fell in love with, especially with old school hip hop and rap is i met a dude that was old school and he introduced because I had a hard time like getting into it because like,
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know, when you're dealing with like the new stuff, you're like, where is this coming from? Like there feels like ah like a backstory, you know? It's like you start episode two, right? Instead of episode one, you're like, hey, where's episode one?
::Amani Roberts
Ha ha ha. ha.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So you gotta first go back and see like how they went from like disco rap yeah to like funk pop.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And it kind of like started progressing down from there. you just you I don't know. I feel like especially like with your book and I feel like going through that history and all of that, it's something that you do learn is in order to understand it, in order to enjoy it even more than you are now, you got to go back to the roots.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You just got to.
::Amani Roberts
Like that's why that's why in my book I have a section at the end of every chapter, my favorite samples, which then you can see, oh, I didn't know that this group sampled the Chantels.
::Amani Roberts
Oh, I didn't know that this group sampled the Whispers.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Mm-hmm.
::Amani Roberts
Oh, I was unaware that the OJs were sampled by this group. And that just, it just continues to teach you
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Or the Supremes as an example?
::Amani Roberts
Just how much, oh yeah, Supremes.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
The Supremes, since you mentioned them, I love to tell this story. The Supremes, first of all, when they so they were signed to Motown, Barry Gordy didn't really want them, didn't like them, didn't want them.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Really?
::Amani Roberts
So for the first year, for the first year, almost a year and a half, all they were allowed to do was clap their hands on records. They were just allowed to clap their hands on records. After that, they were then allowed to sing back up.
::Amani Roberts
sang backup for probably, you know, and they clapped their hands on over 160, 200 songs.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
They clapped their hands on a lot of songs. Then they sang backup on more, a lot of songs also. Finally, they were allowed to release their own music. After they released six, seven, eight songs, none of them really popped off. So they were actually called the no-hit supremes within Motown.
::Amani Roberts
They were referred to as the no-hit supremes. Then they released one song that hit number 24. I have to look that song up. After they 24, they went, um where's the song?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Ooh. All right, we're going through here. Yes.
::Amani Roberts
Shining Through His Eyes. In: ::Amani Roberts
11 of their next 14 singles hit number one. That's unprecedented. That really hasn't been done ever since. And then they were off and running. The last song that they released with Diana Ross went number one, and then they kept they kept going from there. Like Love Child was the last one in...
::Amani Roberts
e to We'll All Be Together in: ::Amani Roberts
Then they were called the no-hit Supremes, but then they had an unprecedented run of number one songs. And so, legends. But they had they had to get through some stuff at first, too. They had to show resilience also.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
resilience is something that is almost lost between the pages because you for you forget that you can be ah you can be ah you can be cocky and you can be stuck up Sabrina Carpenter and you just decide that you wanna stand there and be a performer, but at the same time, you need that resilience, you need that creativity and you need to know if somebody is telling you you're not not good enough,
::Amani Roberts
Hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You tell yourself, no, i'm better than that. And you prove that shit. I mean, you're right. like The Supremes is a great example of this. Can you imagine the humiliation of being a group where you've got to clap your hands 162 times?
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
And then you kind of make music, and then you're called the no-hit Supremes. like That hits you to the core. and then they're like, you know what? Let's make 11 singles in a row.
::Amani Roberts
yeah
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
back to back.
::Amani Roberts
So resilience is one of my favorite of the grit attributes. And I speak about resilience on stage. And I think that this is the characteristic that is probably the most underestimated in terms of musician success. Out of all the musicians I study, over a thousand musicians, the through line to success was resilience.
::Amani Roberts
released their first song in: ::Amani Roberts
That was their goal. In: ::Amani Roberts
ed going backwards because in: ::Amani Roberts
It took them eight years after that to get their first and only Billboard Hot 100 top 10 song with Rocksteady.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
That's 23 years it took of them honing their craft, keeping you know keep just keeping at it. And I always ask people... First of all, what were you doing 23 years ago? secondly Secondly, can you imagine if in today's era they were to give a group 23 years to get the success they wanted to get? It just wouldn't happen. They would barely give a group 23 hours, but still. So that's my favorite story of resilience that I discovered while writing and doing the research for the book that I talk about and I share all the time because I think it's it's an amazing story and I just love it.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is. It's just—it is the ultimate story of resilience. And um it's interesting, just touching on this, I don't know if you've ever heard of this group. You ever heard of Hot Chocolate?
::Amani Roberts
Yes.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Their song, Emma, I have probably listened to the song more times than I can count, is just— There's so many emotions. There's so many elements. And the crazy thing that I like found out because I did a little bit of research on them, they weren't that successful.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
they had like They had a few hits. They did pretty well in the, I think, like early to mid-70s, kind of late-70s. But they kept at it, and it's just...
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
When I listen to this music, I feel like I am experiencing their life story.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, yeah there they're most known for You Sexy Thing, but yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You know?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
use sexy thing.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
you But for me, I don't know.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Have you heard that song, Emma?
::Amani Roberts
No, but I'll listen to it once we finish. Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I'm telling you, there's so many. but That's also the thing, too, man. Like we were touching on, too, marketing yourself right we were saying this in the beginning like saying you need resilience you to understand like this is a hard industry but marketing doesn't mean that you got to be like marketing director or you know creative manager or whatever you know a production designer it just means that you know what you know what you're making it's like why you writing the lyrics like Why are you doing R&B funk and soul?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Is this who you are as a creative? like Is this what you like to play on your instruments? You have to... People like, well, how am i supposed to market yourself? I think you might be able to explain this better than I can, but it's like, I don't think you should look at it of how you should market yourself.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's... Are you marketing yourself?
::Amani Roberts
Hmm. Well, marketing, and we can talk about it in today's era. It's very complex. I think when you're looking at marketing, you kind of break it down to three categories.
::Amani Roberts
You have paid, earned, and owned.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Okay.
::Amani Roberts
So paid marketing is any advertisements that you do. It can be a billboard on Hollywood Boulevard. It can be the the signs you see on the bus stops. It could be Google ads.
::Amani Roberts
That's like paid marketing right there. Owned advertising is the platforms that you own, specifically your website and your email list.
::Amani Roberts
Now, there's a little bit of gray area because people will like to say, oh, well, I own my social media followers. Well, you don't really own them because they can go away at any moment, particularly the example of TikTok in January this year. MySpace is the best example of you building up on a social media platform.
::Amani Roberts
Then it goes away and you you lose it. That's owned. So owned, I would stick with, I would, yeah, exactly.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Vine also, yeah.
::Amani Roberts
Owned, I would stick to things you own. You own your email list, you own your website, you own your blog. Those are three ones. As a note side note to artists, if you do anything nowadays, your number one priority should be growing your email list.
::Amani Roberts
Not growing your followers, that's number two. Growing your email list should be number one. And then finally, it's earned. Earned is if word of mouth people are sharing just how you share with me hot chocolate in the song Emma.
::Amani Roberts
That's an example of ah earned marketing. Also, earned marketing would be if Rolling Stone writes an article about you, puts you on the cover article in the in the magazine, and you did not pay for that.
::Amani Roberts
That's called earned marketing. Earned marketing could be if you know and a music news site runs a article a video story about you. You didn't pay for it, that's earned. If you're on the magazine cover, that's earned as long as you don't pay for it.
::Amani Roberts
So if you break down marketing to those three buckets, that gives you a good outline of just how to market yourself. Me being on this podcast with you. That's the example of like earned marketing because you're talking to me. I'm sharing with you about my book, my expertise. when when When artists appear on the Joe Rogan podcast, that's a major earned marketing venue, like an avenue because you're getting exposure to hundreds of millions of people who are learning about you.
::Amani Roberts
You don't have to pay. Sometimes you do pay, so it depends. But that's that's the modern-day form of like... the radio interview. you know Unfortunately, there are no more shows for certain genres like Arsenio Hall Show used to be a really great earned um media property in living color.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It is. Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
And I'm thinking primarily of hip hop and R&B, another show where you could appear on that people would get exposed to you on national television.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
But those avenues are gone. So really podcasts are taking over. ah Blogs are still around. Sometimes, you know, word of mouth is very powerful. um That's how I break down marketing when I teach it.
::Amani Roberts
And that's what I like for people to keep it. If you could put it in these three buckets, really focus on growing your email list for the own, update your website for that. that And then um the mixing, depending whether or not you want to pay for advertisements and then earned is the blurry line.
::Amani Roberts
And then you also have social media, which is just a different kind of beast as well.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
it It is. And you know what? You touched on something that's so true, which is with podcasting, right? People don't get this, and I've said this before. We're talking about Joe Rogan, right?
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's not necessarily where it's Joe Rogan's podcast. It's where you have somebody that comes on and you're representing yourself, right? You're marketing yourself at that moment.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
You're saying like that blurred line between earned, you know, being able to be on a cover or getting those. It's how you're representing yourself in these interviews is how people are, you know, see you. Let's just say social media.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's like, don't look, I get it. People make a lot of money off of social media. The way I'm starting to see it, and you're 100% correct, is don't focus on social media as a revenue stream.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Focus it as a way in your marketing strategy to be able to get you that earned revenue, getting that exposure, getting yourself out there.
::Amani Roberts
Yes. Yeah. yeah
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, it's marketing. Just don't make the mistake to think that you own your followers because they can go away at any time.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah. Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
any Anytime you have someone else deciding who sees your post, when they see it, and for how long they see it, you don't own that property. So they consistently change the algorithm.
::Amani Roberts
Well, that's out of your control. You can't control that. So you're at their beck and call in terms of if people see it. And then when they're trying to force you to pay, to boost your posts that you can get it in front of your followers, that might as well be paid advertising right there, paid marketing.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There's just, um it sounds, it can sound complex, but what you're saying is so true. It's not complex. It's if you break it down, like you said, you know, you break it down into three different things and you can kind of clump together different things together to reach those same outcomes and goals so because they kind of play alongside with one another.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I think also this entire conversation we're talking about, it's not just R&B, Motown, and soul.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-mm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's also talking about those artists that realized, hey, I'm a creative person.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-mm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
I make really great music. I know that I have a talent here. But figuring out what to do with that properly, not screwing yourself 30 years in the future, you know, understanding that like there were artists that took them 23 years to get on that billboard chart. It's a long game. It's a hard game. But if you're an artist and you love this industry, you're creative, you want to do it, I think go out and do it.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
But have the right tools when you're doing it.
::Amani Roberts
Absolutely. Yes. have Have the right tools, build the right team, have the right expectations, have the right mindset.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yes.
::Amani Roberts
And if you could do that and you can be consistent and you can be able to be resilient and and suffer through a couple of ah you know down moments. You trip and fall. Some things don't work. But if you can stick with it, um you will see some great things happen. And it might not be what you expect.
::Amani Roberts
A lot of times, artists are like, ooh, I want to be performing at the Staples Center. Well, they call it now. It's Crypto Arena, whatever. I want to be performing there.
::Amani Roberts
But what happens is that instead of that, maybe you're the songwriter.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Yeah.
::Amani Roberts
to someone groups of people who are performing at these stadiums. So initially you thought you're going to be performing, but maybe actually you're so skilled at writing songs that they are hiring you to write their songs and and they're singing your songs in front of stadiums full of people across the world.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
yeah
::Amani Roberts
Just be open to what comes to you because you never know how it could work. I think in reverse, one of my favorite examples of songwriters is Thea. Sia first got big because she wrote massive hits for numerous artists.
::Amani Roberts
And then she got big. Ed Sheeran, the same way. He's a talented performer and songwriter, but he first kind of cut his teeth and got his breaks being a songwriter. And so don't discount just how you can be successful in the industry.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
yeah There's all different ways of being able to be successful. To your point, I mean, there's so many different things that, I said this before too, you know you may seem this is crazy, like even being a marketing director can be a creative position.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
An accountant can be a creative position just because you find numbers boring.
::Amani Roberts
Mm-hmm.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
There can be somebody that is really good at that. And especially if you're dealing with you know production and you have your own record label, they can come in there and they love and they're passionate about this and literally save you a hundred dollars.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
All right. I think that's kind of cool and it's kind of nice at the same time. But like you said, there's just you got to be able to. Put that first leg out.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
All right. You got to do that first, figure out. And then sometimes things fail, man. You know, sometimes one avenue doesn't work. Then you try another one. You know, like we're talking about like Sia, right? You go from songwriting to be able to make massive, you know, top chart singles just ah across.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
It's just it's impeccable. Honestly, Amani, I have to say like it's great when you have experts such as yourself because not only do you get like the history and the knowledge and the expertise, but also the right strategy to be able to push yourself forward. I'm not saying that you're going to be a massive like superstar.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Let's be realistic. It's hard to get there. But at least give you like the right direction.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, exactly.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
That's it.
::Amani Roberts
Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you for that compliment. I appreciate it. that That's my goal is just to close the knowledge gap and to help musicians make better business decisions. And that's what I do.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
i Love that man and um, I know you mentioned your book is good is came out a couple of months ago I know you have a website which we spoke earlier. It's got This man has everything on his website
::Amani Roberts
Yeah, we're still working on the website. But yeah, so the book you can get at any online platform you want to is called The Quiet Storm, a historical and cultural analysis of the power, passion and pain of R&B groups.
::Amani Roberts
If you're a musician out there.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Beautiful book cover
::Amani Roberts
Oh, yeah. Thank you. I love it. I love it. If you're a musician out there and you're maybe you're struggling or you want to maybe take your musicianship and your artistry to a next level, I offer free calls for any musician that might want to talk and see if we might want to work together.
::Amani Roberts
You can just go to my website, AmaniExperience.com backslash call.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Thank you.
::Amani Roberts
And Amani is A like Apple, M like Mary, A like Apple, N like Nancy I, experience. So it's all one word,.com backslash call. And I'd love to talk to you see if we might be a good fit. But those are the two best ways to reach me. Get the book, set up a free call for musicians.
::Amani Roberts
And um just thank you very much for having me on the show.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Oh, my pleasure, my man. And for anybody out there that you are lazy to start tapping or typing things in, we've got the links for you right below. Made it easy for you. what's your um What's your social handle, by the way?
::Amani Roberts
Social handles, Amani Experience. So that that'll get you to my Instagram, ah TikTok, ah Twitter, and then on LinkedIn, which I think is hidden for artists to use. It's Amani, last name is Roberts.
::Amani Roberts
So you put in Amani space Roberts space DJ, it'll pop up there.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
So all y'all from all kinds of cons and creed, if you got to reach out to Imani, you know what to do.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
ah Thank you so much, man. And to anybody out there, if you want to check out more of the podcast, you can find us everywhere and anywhere at Lost in the Groove pod. So with that, we'll catch y'all on the next one.
::Lost in the Groove Podcast
Peace out.
